Talk:Shapedancer (4E)
The Paragon Path Features are a bit odd.
1, Shapedancer Action: "free use of Shapedancer Focus that counts neither as an action or against the limit on uses per encounter." Does that mean that I essentially can have two Shapedancer Foci running at the same time during an encounter?
- Since this is a stance, you can only use one at a time. --Starfox 11:02, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
2, Shapedancer Restoration: "you can use any Shapedancer paragon power as a part of the same action". All but Shapedancer Focus comes on a higher level than this one. --Mats 14:49, 9 October 2008 (CEST)
- This is indeed in error... You should only be able to use powers you know. --Starfox 11:02, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
Contents
Shapedance [Path]
Are there any other feat that gives a new Utility power? All the ones I can think of switches an old power for the new one. This power is far too good for just a feat.--Markus 08:05, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- This is a feature of Path feats; they can give access to path feature, including powers, at a much reduced-utility. In this case, only applying to skills, and daily instead of encounter. Cf Favored Channel --Starfox 11:02, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
Shapedance Focus
As written, this is a Utility power. It should be an attack. --Markus 08:05, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- I feel a bit of concern for this too, but not too much. There are other stances that are attack powers. Might try and change it to make it include an attack later. --Starfox 11:02, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- Did try and make this more truly an attack; now it might be too strong. You get an extra basic attack as a part of a minor action. At levels 11-20, this just adds an additional [W], but at 21+ it adds 2[W]. Also, fighters get an extra mark this way. Thinking of making it a standard action, but then it needs to be improved somehow. Alos thinking of making it like the shapeshifter feint the tree-critters had, giving combat advantage, but then it needs a stat. As this is a multi-class path, I prefer to let it work with any stat.
- A +2 bonus to attack rolls, even if it is for a single power (most likely an at-will) is probably to much for an encounter power. Skill bonus of +2 is less of an issue. --Urban 16:32, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/254822-draconic-spellcaster-seriously.html feels oddly appropriate... :) If the plus to hit is an issue, then I would rather see more utility. (That's what I personally like anyway... :) ) --Mats 10:36, 22 April 2009 (CEST)
- A +2 bonus to attack rolls, even if it is for a single power (most likely an at-will) is probably to much for an encounter power. Skill bonus of +2 is less of an issue. --Urban 16:32, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
Shapedance Avatar
As written, this is a Utility power. It should be an attack. --Markus 08:05, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- I feel a bit of concern for this too, but not too much. There are other stances that are attack powers. Might try and change it to make it include an attack later. --Starfox 11:02, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
Prerequisites
Every paragon path (185 to date) in the Compendium has some sort of prerequisite, and so should this path. --Urban 11:38, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- Any ideas for a prerequisite? --Starfox 19:08, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- Depending on power source, "any arcane class" or "any primal class" should work. As written, any character can take this path for skill bonuses or movement powers. --Urban 19:25, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- Are you aware that this once had "Fey origin or Arcane class" as a prerequisite, and that I changed it because you asked me to? I think this is the kind of prerequisite that would work. --Starfox 09:21, 21 April 2009 (CEST)
- Not that I can see in the page history. I browsed all previous versions and could find no prerequisite on the main or talk page. As for prerequisites, its difficult to have an opinion without fluff. I would go with Primal for reasons described elsewhere on this page. Fey might work if backed up by fluff, but I don't really see shapeshifting as Arcane. --Urban 10:07, 21 April 2009 (CEST)
- I remember those comments *very* distinctly too. It may not be in the page history because of a copy-paste move to a new name or something. --Mats 10:14, 21 April 2009 (CEST)
- It was once called "Polymath", as can be seen on http://hastur.net/w/index.php?title=Paragon_paths_(4E)&oldid=17003 and had then "Prerequisites: Elemental, Fey, Shapechanger, Primal, or a power with the primal or arcane origin." --Mats 10:19, 21 April 2009 (CEST)
- Yes, I do remember that page. I stand by my earlier comment that the earlier requirement was too complicated. That does not mean that there should be no requirement at all. --Urban 11:27, 21 April 2009 (CEST)
- Not that I can see in the page history. I browsed all previous versions and could find no prerequisite on the main or talk page. As for prerequisites, its difficult to have an opinion without fluff. I would go with Primal for reasons described elsewhere on this page. Fey might work if backed up by fluff, but I don't really see shapeshifting as Arcane. --Urban 10:07, 21 April 2009 (CEST)
- Are you aware that this once had "Fey origin or Arcane class" as a prerequisite, and that I changed it because you asked me to? I think this is the kind of prerequisite that would work. --Starfox 09:21, 21 April 2009 (CEST)
- Depending on power source, "any arcane class" or "any primal class" should work. As written, any character can take this path for skill bonuses or movement powers. --Urban 19:25, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
Arcane or Primal?
To me, inherent shapeshifting feels more like the Primal rather than Arcane power source. The Master of Many Forms (3E, Complete Adventurer, page 58) gains improved wild shape and is described as using whatever form is convenient at the moment. In 4E, the druid and warden Polymorph powers seem quite similar to what this path is about.--Urban 11:55, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- Primals tend to change their shape completely, but you do have a point. At present, this is very much open to implement attackers which makes it feel arcane, but it could be primal with no consequences whatsoever.
- This was not the case for the Master of Many Forms (which seems like an analog to this path) in 3E, at least judging by the fluff and the illustration. I think that Warden Polymorph powers seem to be partial transformations, and the druid can shapeshift into an amorphous incarnation of the Primal Beast and not just ordinary animal forms. My impression is that Primal shapeshifting in 4E allows partial as well as full transformations. In any case, there is very little fluff for this path. It says "you assume a shape", but not whether this is a partial or full transformation. --Urban 19:20, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
Keywords
I know that Alter Form keyword includes Polymorph, but I still believe that the Polymorph should be listed as a keyword for the powers. Recursive keyword lookup is bad design since one might miss the Polymorph keyword during play. --Urban 13:11, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
The Alter Form keyword seems wrong for a path that can gain flight. I assume this requires wings, and that does not fit "same basic build" part of the Alter form description. Of course, if one can use Alter Form powers to change from human to harpy this point is moot. --Urban 11:55, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
- Local rule trumphs general rule. The general rule is same basic form. The local rules says wings. --Starfox 18:51, 19 April 2009 (CEST)
