Talk:Feats (4E)

When the GM is the one writing the feats, "ask your GM about availability" is a silly policy. We really need a list of fully approved feats for each campaign. Make a scratch page somewhere to hold experimental stuff. --Markus 00:19, 2 December 2008 (CET)

This is supposed to be usuable by several DMs. --Starfox 01:24, 3 December 2008 (CET)

I'll split up the feat pages as soon as I feel up to it. Once that is done, rule components can be tagged by DM or campaign using categories, and campaign specific pages generated automatically. I agree that a page to hold rules in development is a good idea, peer review is essential. --Urban 01:32, 3 December 2008 (CET)

Feat Ideas

These feats are being worked on.

Two-Step

Prerequisite: Level 11

Benefit: When you take an action that lets you shift, you can shift two additional squares as long as the shift does not exceed your Speed.

Hide in Plain Sight

Prerequisite: Level 11, trained in Stealth

Benefit: You can use stealth to gain hidden status as long as you have concealment or cover; you do not need total concealment or superior cover.

Footwork Advantage

Benefit: You count squares that are impassible or difficult ground for your enemy as allies for the purpose of flanking.

Implement Focus

Benefit: Choose a type of implement, such as Staff,Wad, or rod. You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your chosen implement. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st level, it increases to +3.

Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another type of implement.

Archer Rogue (Rogue, Genre)

I am Subotai. Thief and archer.

Prerequisite: Sneak attack ability, Proficiency with the shortbow.

Benefit: You can use the shortbow with rogue powers and Sneak Attack.

Blade Rogue (Rogue, Genre)

Prerequisite: Rogue, Sneak attack ability, Str 13

Benefit: You can use one-handed heavy blades with rogue powers and Sneak Attack. You can use Dexterity bonus instead of your Strength bonus when making melee basic attacks with one-handed heavy blades.

Combat Style (Multiclass Fighter)

Prerequisites: Str 13

Benefit: You gain training in one skill from the fighter’s class skill list.

Choose either one-handed melee weapons or two handed melee weapons. Once per day as a free action, you can add a +1 bonus to the attack rolls you make with a weapon of that category until the end of the encounter. When this is active, whether the attack hits or misses, you can mark the target until the end of your next turn.

Special: You cannot know both this feat and Student of the Sword.

Implement Rogue (Rogue, Genre)

Prerequisite: Sneak attack ability, ability to use an implement.

Benefit: You can use sneak attack with implement attacks.

Mechanist

Benefit: You become trained in Thievery. You get a +2 feat bonus on Thievery checks. You cannot use Thievery to pick pockets or perform sleight of hand; you are considered untrained in such tasks and do not gain the +2 feat bonus from this feat.

Ritual Expert

Benefit: Ritual Caster feat
Benefit: You learn new rituals at half the normal market price and cast known ritual at half the normal component cost. The reduction in component cost does not apply to any ritual that creates a permanent or consumable item.
Notes: This assumes the Acquiring Rituals optional rule is in effect.

Steady Shooter (Fighter)

Prerequisite: Dex 13.

Benefit: You can make basic attacks with crossbows and firearms using your Strength modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier.

Weapon Finesse (Genre)

Prerequisite: Dex 13, Fighter or Warlord

Benefit: When using a light blade or unarmed attack, you can substitute your Dexterity bonus for your Strength bonus for the hit and effect lines of fighter and warlord powers and basic attacks.

Obsolete Feat Ideas

These feats are nor currently being worked on.

Battle Rogue (Rogue)

Prerequisite: Sneak attack ability.

Benefit: You can use any weapon with rogue powers and Sneak Attack. You can use Sneak attack with damaging non-rogue powers that do not use weapons.

Campaign: This opens up many multiclass options for rogues.

Martal Power is very restrictive with adding weapons to the rogue repertoire. New weapon typically are 1d8 damage and lose 1 die from sneak attack. Battle Rogue is overpowered.

To clarify: MP allows a rogue to do sneak attack with some weapons, such as axe, mace, or longsword. This costs 1 die of sneak attack damage and each weapon is a specic feat. In the case of Battle Rogue, you can use all weapons and not lose sneak attack damage. --Urban 15:43, 23 November 2008 (CET)

The more restrictive feats are more balanced, but in keeping with MA should be limited to a single weapon and lose a die of sneak attack damage. I do not think the rogue concept needs to be expanded to allow for all heavy blades or bows; one feat for longsword and one for shortbow should suffice. (Tunnel Stalker does allows all one-handed axes and hammer, but it is a racial feat and still loses Sneak Attack damage.) --Urban 23:41, 1 December 2008 (CET)

Can someone explain what makes Street Thug a viable feat. You gp frp, 1d6 (shortsword) to 1d8 (mace), losing one point of accuracy. This trade-off is slightly worse for a rogue with bonus damage. Comparing this to Rapier, I just can't see any point. Is there any long combo that makes this worthwhile? The elf and dwarf variant have some point because they allow racial feats, but still seem weak. --Starfox 16:06, 2 December 2008 (CET)

Brutal Intimidation

Prerequisites: Str 13

Benefit: You become trained in Intimidation. You add your Strenth bonus instead of your Charisma bonus to your skill modifier for Intimidation.

This is the result of an earlier discussion. Not sure if we really want this, but pt it here as a basis for dicussion. This could apply to other skills, lie Perception (Int) for rogues only et al. Alternatively, Intimidation could be made to be Str based or have both Str and Cha options from scratch.

Familiar

Benefit: You have a tiny animal familiar that functions similar to a minion, doing minor services for you. The familiar has your speed and one of fly, swim, or climb movement rate. It uses your skill values, limited by its physical form. As a minor action you can order it to move within 10 squares of you and pick up, move, or manipulate an object. It can only carry objects weighing a pound or less. As a free action you can order it to drop whatever it is holding. You can communicate non-verbally just as if you had a shared language.

It acts on your initiative in combat but has no attacks. A familiar can only be attacked when it’s not in your square and does not trigger opportunity attacks. It has the same defense values you have, including armor worn. Any hit will cause it to flee and hide and not take any more orders. When you take a long rest, you can always order it to return to you, even in the middle of an errand or if it is in hiding.

A familiar can perform some additional services, but after doing one of these it will not be able to do anything but run away and hide.

• It can be sent on an extended errand, in which case it can move outside the regular range. It will be just as able as you are to find its way. The errand must be one single definite task, such as spying on a location or delivering a message.
• If it begins its turn in your square, it can deliver one of your non-weapon, non-personal powers, in which case the power originates from the familiar instead of from you. If the power has melee range, the familiar must be in the same space as the target to deliver it.

Nimble Athlete

I am very strongly opposed to this feat. Shifting attributes is seldom a good thing and should, in my opinion, be avoided. Among other things, it encourages extreme attribute scores. For rogues, being better at Athletics was one of the things that distinguished Brutal Scoundrels (and Ruthless Ruffians) from Artful Dodgers. Dex is the primary Rogue ability, and the Artful Dodger build is already tempting enough as it is. --Urban 09:29, 27 November 2008 (CET)

I agree, attribute shifting is a bad idea, and should only be done if ages of playtest shows it to be neccessary, in which case it should not be optional. --Markus 13:47, 28 November 2008 (CET)

I cannot see at all why you should be more strict with attributes in the non-combat silo than in the

combat silo. And in the combat silo, WoTC themselves play extremely fast and loose with the attributes

- loose enough that the attributes becomes almost devoid of definition :) . (See e.g. WoTC's

description of the Bard's attributes as fighting with Cha and inspiring people with Con...)

The same thing goes for SAD. The fact that so many powers only use the class' primary attribute,

and not any of the secondary ones, is a much stronger incentive for extreme attribute scores than

any single skill definition (especially not when you add the cost of an extra feat).

See e.g that none of the published powers for the Bard used anything other than Cha (and they

published enough for a complete build 1-10(*)), and nothing in the published Druid powers used anything

other than Wis (as far as I rememeber - WoTC pulled open access to that article again.)

(I use these previews as example, because they are what I remember best, having read them latest.)

(*) That in spite of having claimed that Con was used for inspiration... :) :)

--Mats 13:51, 3 December 2008 (CET)

Physical Threat

See my opinion about Nimble Athlete above. I might abuse the rules and take the feat, but I still believe that attribute shifting is a bad idea. --Urban 10:00, 27 November 2008 (CET)

Trap Awareness

I'm not sure that feat is needed. If it is, the relevant skill is clearly Dungeoneering. Thievery is disabling traps (and a lot of other things), but the skill description says nothing about detection. Dungeoneering includes hazard detection and recognizing new construction. Dwarves get a bonus to this which makes sense. --Urban 01:43, 29 November 2008 (CET)

I thought it was done with perception as the classic way was search which is included in perception. --TexaS 19:43, 1 December 2008 (CET)

Yes, rules as written would use Percpetion (i.e., Spot and Search in 3E) to find traps. This feat allows another skill to be used instead. My point is if that another skill should be allowed, it should be Dungeoneering and not Thievery. For the record, I still believe that attribute or skill shifting is a bad idea. One might argue that it gives people more options, but it rewards more extreme stats since you can compensate for a bad stat with a feat. --Urban 19:54, 1 December 2008 (CET)

The issue this is trying to adress is that ragers and even clerics are often much better at spotting traps than rogues are. Using Dungeoneering does not solve this, as that is another ranger skill. --Starfox 15:19, 2 December 2008 (CET)

I don't see this as a problem. If you let the rogue use his primary attribute for trap detection as well as stealth and to disable traps, the rogue effectively becomes a Single Attribute Dependent netrunner who is capable of operating on his own away from the party, or stealing the show in party mode. This bad party dynamics. If the required skills and attributes are split among the party, more players get a chance to participate. This is probably the reason social skills are split among the classes, it makes it more expensive to create a face man with lots of social skills.

Once reason I like dungeoneering is that it gives a slight boost to Dwarven rogues, but I also believe indoor rangers should be able to look for traps, if not necessarily disable them. The best option is of course to not use this feat at all. --Urban 08:14, 3 December 2008 (CET)

I've been thinking some more on this. Another way to play it is that anyone specifically looking for a trap more or less automatically finds it. You are assumed to take 20 on Perception in a short rest. This covers most "trapped treasure chest" type situations, and minimizes the need for this feat. Still, taking a short rest in every room clearly makes a second-story burglar less than exiting. Also, I think finding and disabling traps is really in the same role. Right now, a ranged ranger with training in thievery is much better at traps than a typical rogue. --Starfox 10:38, 3 December 2008 (CET)

It may be the same role, but why does it have to be the same skill? Training in Perception and Skill Focus will enable the rogue to do just fine without this feat, and the cost is the same (I assume the rogue wants Perception which is a great skill to have). This is another example of ability shifting, and I don't like that. --Urban 11:08, 3 December 2008 (CET)

You won't address "bad party dynamics" by being against this as it's only Rangers and Rogues that can get trained in perception without paying for a feat. That gives them a +5 advantage that is hard to overcome with a high stat. --TexaS 17:03, 3 December 2008 (CET)

The DM allows free skill selection in the Rise of the Runelords. See the Characters page. Every character can train Perception by spending a skill choice. --Urban 17:08, 3 December 2008 (CET)

Are we discussing generalities or campaign specifics here? --Mats 17:47, 3 December 2008 (CET)

Improved Channel Divinity (Cleric)

Prerequisite: Channel Divinity, Cleric

Benefit: You can use your deity's channel divinity power as an at-will power.

Weapon Specialization (Multiclass Fighter)

Prerequisites: Str 13

Special: You cannot know this feat and Student of the Sword.

Benefit: Choose one melee weapon; you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with this weapon. Every time you attack an enemy with this weapon, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn.

Dread Strike (Warlock)

Prerequisite: Warlock, Con 13

Benefit: While using a rod as an implement, you can use any warlock ranged attack power as a melee attack power instead. If you do so, the power’s range equals your melee reach.