Talk:Witchwardens

Benefits

Affiliation Score	Title: Benefits and Duties
3 or lower	Apprentice: Purchase spellcasting services from the Witchwardens at normal price.
4-10	Initiate: Access to order spellbooks for copying spells and laboratories for researching spells and creating magic items. Can work as a certified spellcaster in Sasserine. Purchase spellcasting services from the Witchwardens at 3/4 price (excluding material component costs), expected to extend this discount to other members.
11-20	White Dagger: +2 affiliation bonus on Spellcraft checks made in guild libraries and labs. 25% discount on scroll purchase and scribing costs as well as spell scribing and spell research costs at a guild lodge.
21-29	Black Dagger: +2 affiliation bonus on Spellcraft and all Knowledge checks. Learn and get the ability to spontaneously cast dispel magic and greater dispel magic.
30 or higher	Red Dagger: +4 bonus on dispel checks and Spellcraft checks.

Values:

4 =- 250

10: 1200

20: 3400

30: 4800

--Starfox 14:15, 1 November 2007 (CET)

Affiliation Score	Title: Benefits and Duties
21-29	Black Dagger: +2 affiliation bonus on dispel checks and all Knowledge checks. Learn and get the ability to spontaneously cast dispel magic and heigthen spell.

20: 500 (extra spell halved as it can only be dispell magic) + 225 (dispell magic) + 1000 (Heigthen spell) + 1000 (+2 dispell checks (=feat cost)) + ???? för Knowledge = 2725 + ????

Value of 30 above? 4*4*100 - 2*2*100 = 1600 - 400 = 1200 for Spellcraft and 4800 - 1200 = 3600 for +4 on dispell check? More than cost of three feats?

--TexaS 10:51, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Comments

The cost of the dispel check bonus was calculated at 200 x bonus^2 (same as two skills). At +4, thats 3200, which is about the same as 3 feats. Maybe feats are too cheap; not many affiliations (or items for that matter) give feats.

The base cost I used for of "All Knowledge skills) is 300 IIR. I remember I choose between 200 and 300 for this. 300 does seem pretty expensive, as the "Circlet of persuasion" effect has a base cost of only 500, which on the other hand seems very cheap. In the suggestion below, I used 200 for the cost.

Having a "Heighten" effect on the regular dispel magic would certainly work but probably be weaker overall. Greater dispel magic has some added utility; it can dispel curses. It is also an advantage to have a dispel at 2 different levels (in case you already cast your third level spell). Since your level 3 slot will often be already used up (fireball being a favorite spell), you will often be unable to use dispel magic this way. The best fix might be to reverse the ruling that you cannot use a higher-level slot to cast a lower level spell on the fly. That way, you'd no longer have to memorize magic missile twice.

Here is a suggested benefits section based on your ideas, with an expanded cost calculation part.

Benefits 1.3

Affiliation Score	Title: Benefits and Duties
3 or lower	Apprentice: Purchase spellcasting services from the Witchwardens at normal price.
4-10	Initiate: Access to order spellbooks for copying spells and laboratories for researching spells and creating magic items. Can work as a certified spellcaster in Sasserine. Purchase spellcasting services from the Witchwardens at 3/4 price (excluding material component costs), expected to extend this discount to other members.
11-20	White Dagger: +2 affiliation bonus on Spellcraft checks made in guild libraries and labs. 25% discount on scroll purchase and scribing costs as well as spell scribing and spell research costs at a guild lodge.
21-29	Black Dagger: +2 affiliation bonus on dispel checks, Spellcraft checks, and all Knowledge skill checks. Learn and get the ability to spontaneously cast dispel magic, with no level limit on the dispel check.
30 or higher	Red Dagger: +4 affiliation bonus on dispel checks, Knowledge (Arcane) checks, and Spellcraft checks.

Values:

4

250 - Spell service discount

10

1200 total

2000/2 (limited utility) 
400/2 (base only)

20

3050 total

1000 Skills bonuses: 3 x100 x2^2 - 100 x2^2/2 (discount from previous level)
800 Dispel check bonus 200 x2^2
1000 New spell
250 No caster level limit (limited Heighten spell on dispel magic).

30

4800 total

2400 Skills 2 x100 x(4^2 - x2^2) (Includes discount from previous tier)
2400 Dispel check 200 x(4^2 - x2^2) (Includes discount from previous tier)

--Starfox 13:09, 15 November 2007 (CET)

I thought of Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration or any of those feats when figuring the cost of those +2 on dispel checks.

I think the skill bonuses get too much discount. Probably you should have to pay for every skill individually, but the question is skills like perform which have lots of defined but not nessessarily that good and profession that can have an unlimited number of different skills. That also applies in some ways to knowledge skills.

I thought of heighten spell as the metamagic feat, not just for dispell magic.

--TexaS 14:32, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Just a comment on this as this seems to be more specifically aimed at me:

Having a "Heighten" effect on the regular dispel magic would certainly work but probably be weaker overall. Greater dispel magic has some added utility; it can dispel curses. It is also an advantage to have a dispel at 2 different levels (in case you already cast your third level spell). Since your level 3 slot will often be already used up (fireball being a favorite spell), you will often be unable to use dispel magic this way. The best fix might be to reverse the ruling that you cannot use a higher-level slot to cast a lower level spell on the fly. That way, you'd no longer have to memorize magic missile twice.

I wouldn't need any heighten effect as I have that metamagic feat already. I have always had dispell magic prepared. I have remove curse. I have Extra Spell Slot at lvl 3. These bonuses would only be good for anything at all if they free up my already used feats so I can use them for other things. Otherwise the whole dispell magic concept is wasted and wichwardens would again spend most of it's value on things useless for me.

The using a higher spell slot for lower spells is a separate question but worth discussing.

--TexaS 15:28, 15 November 2007 (CET)