Talk:Skills (4E)

Skill Divergence Option

You can opt to take a penalty of one or two point to the skill bonus of each trained skill. These points go into a pool; you can distribute points from this pool among all your untrained skills, but no more than two points can go into any one untrained skill. You can change penalties and redistribute points at every even level.

This is a result of the earlier discussion, and does not use skill point but allows skill diversification by another method. This is not skill points, but has many of the benefits. --Starfox 12:26, 13 March 2009 (CET)

• The end result is similar to the proposed skill point rule.
• The rule is simpler and closer to canon
• The identity and number of trained skills is preserved
• This can probably be used as a "special" or "miscellaneous" modifier in various character builder utilities, unlike the skill point model.
• This works seamlessly with Jack of all Trades.
  • JoT is still strictly worse (max +4 total)
  • The total benefit to skills is preserved (+2 per untrained skill).
  • Overall, JoT becomes better, but only slightly so.

Skill Points Option

This optional rule allows characters to spread their training bonus to skills more evenly.

• There is no skill bonus for having a trained skill
• A character has a pool of skill point equal to 5 times the number of trained skills he has.
  • These skill points can be divided as the player wants across all class skills and trained cross-class skills.
  • Add the skill points spent on each skill to checks using that skill.
  • You can assign up to 5 skill points to each skill.
  • Skill points are reassigned each time you reach an even level.
    • You can reduce the amount of skill points in each skill by one each time you do this without this considered retraining (this counters the automatic skill increase every two levels, leaving the skill where it was).
    • If you move away more skill points that that from a particular skill, this is considered skill retraining.
• A skill is considered a trained skill (you can use aspects of the skill normally only available to characters trained in the skill) if you put at least three skill points to it.
• A trained skill that is mandatory for your class (such as Arcana for wizards) must have at least three skill points allocated to it.
• This option only applies to the +5 bonus gained to trained skills. It does in no way affect any other type of skill modifiers.

"has a pool of skill point equal to 5 times the number of trained skills he has." gets a bit recursive, since this rule redefines what is considered a trained skill. A literal reading would set up an infinite recursion loop with this, that increases all your skills to max... sorry, its the programmer in me speaking. It is possibly better expressed as number of starting skills + skill-giving feats (training + multiclass) x 5... --Mats 10:16, 11 March 2009 (CET)

Since skills with one or two points assigned to them counts as non-trained, do they stack with the "Jack of all Trades" feat and the Bard non-trained bonus? --Mats 10:22, 11 March 2009 (CET)

A simpler, backwards compatible variant could be to keep the original skill rules and replace the Skill Training and Skill Specialization (or whatever they are called) feats with something like this:

* Gain X (where X >= 5) skill points to add to any skills. A skill with 5 points or more is considered a trained skill. No more than 8 points can be added to a skill.

That's all! Initial character creation remains unchanged. As for the value of X, consider: Jack of All Trades; Multiclassing; Has anybody chosen the Skill Training feat so far? --Hack 13:14, 11 March 2009 (CET)

I would have done it many times over, if the Bard class did not have a special class feature in that area - which it probably pays for in other areas (and to be frank, the class extras you get from multiclassing isn't that great). But then, I'm very much more interested in non-combat stuff than in combat stuff. :) --Mats 13:39, 11 March 2009 (CET)

The respecing at even levels is still a neat idea. However, wouldn't this lead to some skill values 'going through the roof' the way they did in 3E? --Hack 13:41, 11 March 2009 (CET)

See: "You can assign up to 5 skill points to each skill." --Mats 14:05, 11 March 2009 (CET)

The original suggestion is backwards compatible. This suggestion looses the whole idea of being able to have skills at different levels to accentuate the ones you are really good at, the ones you are good at and the ones you are not so good at. In roleplaying games where you distribute your points you often have one that is the highest and a couple just below and the rest follows below. In D&D 4E your stat makes all the difference and your class decides how these must be distributed. A rogue that haven't got max Dex is much worse. All rogues that have max Dex have exactly the same in stealth and thievery, only differing by magical items. This means that the only way you can differentiate your character is by magical items. In my mind that doesn't qualify to be named roleplaying game, as there's hardly any room for playing any roles. --TexaS 13:50, 11 March 2009 (CET)

Different Way to Express the same idea

(less fun but mechanical similar)

You can give yourself a penalty of one or two points to any trained skill. These points go into a pool that you can distribute to your non-trained skills. You can put no morethan two points into any such skill. --Starfox 09:33, 12 March 2009 (CET)

Non-class skills? I had planned to distribute them to class skills I couldn't afford to be trained in. With this very simple description, most of the complaints others had will be solved and the whole goal of the idea is still there. I think perhaps '...that you can distribute to your non-trained skills, and don't stack with the "Jack of all Trades" feat.' --TexaS 10:40, 12 March 2009 (CET)

Ops, non-class was supposed to be non-trained. And this would indeed not work with Jackof all trades. Overall, this was a less interesting and workable suggestion. --Starfox 15:44, 12 March 2009 (CET)