# Talk:Horrific classes

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### Basic Class Balance

Straight from Eclipse:

- d20 Modern characters have “Talents” as well as Feats. In general, these are simply restricted-list feats, and so are covered under that entry. Since d20 Modern classes are ten-level classes with no special restrictions, they have a total of 264 CP available (counting level “0"). Being far less variegated than fantasy classes, they are listed here in an abbreviated fashion. Unsurprisingly, most of them are a few points underpowered compared to the Fantasy classes.

- Strong Hero; Hit Die: 10d8 (40 CP), Saves: +11 (33 CP), Warcraft: +10 (60 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), Defender 5 (24 CP), Skills: 26 skill points (26 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP). Total: 258 CP out of 264 CP

- Tough Hero; Hit Die: 10d10 (60 CP), Saves: +11 (33 CP), Warcraft: +7 (42 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), Defender 5 (24 CP), Skills: 26 skill points (26 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP). Total: 260 CP out of 264 CP

- Fast Hero; Hit Die: 10d8 (40 CP), Saves: +11 (33 CP), Warcraft: +7 (42 CP), Feats: 11 (66 CP, 10 general and Fast Learner specializing in Defense), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), Defender 8 (22 + 20 CP from Fast Learner), Skills: 52 skill points (52 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP). Total: 260 CP out of 264 CP

- Smart Hero; Hit Die: 10d6 (20 CP), Saves: +11 (33 CP), Warcraft: +5 (30 CP), Feats: 11 (66 CP, 10 General Feats plus Fast Learner specializing in Skills), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), Defender 3 (12 CP), Skills: 104 skill points (84 CP + 20 SP from Fast Learner), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP). Total: 260 CP out of 264 CP

- Dedicated Hero; Hit Die: 10d6 (20 CP), Saves: +13 (39 CP), Warcraft: +7 (42 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), Defender 5 (24 CP), Skills: 52 skill points (52 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP). Total: 252 CP out of 264 CP

- Charismatic Hero; Hit Die: 10d6 (20 CP), Saves: +13 (39 CP), Warcraft: +5 (30 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), Defender 3 (12 CP), Skills: 78 skill points (78 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP). Total: 254 CP out of 264 CP

In reality, basic classes are significantly weaker than it seems at first glance. Most talents are worth half a feat at most, and almost every character will have to spend precious feats on weapon proficiencies. Assuming talents are properly adjusted separately, we can proceed. General changes are:

- New skill system, in which each class skill and initial skill point is worth 3 CP (see Talk:Horrific skills), and later skill points are worth 6 CP (may reduce that slightly for early skill points). This causes all basic classes to be horribly front-loaded, but most of these points are unavailable if multiclassing after character creation, so it should be OK.
- Since the skill system is abusing
*Fast Learner*already, it is removed from all classes. - Action points in d20 Modern aren't really class abilities. They're a system-wide add-on to all classes, intended to simulate action-movie world rules and to compensate for missing magic items. World rules should never cost points. This is reinforced by the fact that everyone gets the same amount.
- Likewise Defense is mostly a world rule, if not quite as clear-cut. The classes get different amount of Defense, but any class imported into a Modern campaign would get
*some*Defense value, on top of whatever it had before. Therefore, everyone gets a base Defense of Level/2.5. That's what the Smart hero gets, and that's quite bad enough. Remember, ordinary (fantasy) classes pay*no*points for their ginormous stack of magic items. -
*However*, we need design space for backgrounds, so we'll keep the Action Point 12 CP, with the understanding that they're really paying for backgrounds. Whatever. - Also, no poor BAB. That's a bad idea even for mages.
- Eclipse overvalues HP at 2 CP each. If 3 HP were worth 6 CP, Toughness wouldn't be a trap feat. I won't change that, though. Not yet at least.

#### Strong

Hit Die: 10d8 (40 CP), Saves: +11 (33 CP), Warcraft: +10 (60 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons & light armor (6 CP), *Defender* 1 (6 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP).
Total: 217 CP out of 264 CP

- Class skills: 3 (9 CP).
- Initial skills: 5 (15 CP).
- +2 skill points (12 CP).
- Brawll (6 CP)

New total: 262/264 CP.

#### Tough

Hit Die: 10d10 (60 CP), Saves: +11 (33 CP), Warcraft: +7 (42 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), *Defender* 1 (6 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP).
Total: 216 CP out of 264 CP

- Class skills: 4 (12 CP).
- Initial skills: 6 (18 CP).
- +2 skill points (12 CP).
- Brawll (6 CP).

New total: 264/264 CP.

#### Fast

Hit Die: 10d8 (40 CP), Saves: +11 (33 CP), Warcraft: +7 (42 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), *Defender* 4 (24 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP).
Total: 214 CP out of 264 CP

- Class skills: 5 (15 CP).
- Initial skills: 7 (21 CP)
- +2 skill points (12 CP).

New total: 262/264 CP.

Awareness Talent Tree

- Acute Senses: Equivalent to +3 skill bonus, 6 CP
- Expert Tracker: 6 CP
- Improved Initiative: Equivalent to +3 skill bonus, 6 CP
- Keen Shot:
- Uncanny Dodge I:
*Awareness*, 6 CP - Uncanny Dodge II:
*Awareness/Flankless*, +6 CP - Defensive:
*Awareness/Defensive+Improved Defensive*, +6 CP

Camouflage Talent Tree

- Improved Stealth: Equivalent to +3 skill bonus, 6 CP
- Hidden Movement:
- Total Concealment:

Survivor Talent Tree

- Evasion:
*Fortune/Evasion*, 6 CP - Long Stride:
*Celerity*, 6 CP - Sprint:
- Surefooted:
- Acrobatic Steps:

#### Smart

Hit Die: 10d6 (20 CP), Saves: +13 (39 CP), Warcraft: +7 (42 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP). Total: 176 CP out of 264 CP

- Class skills: 8 (24 CP).
- Initial skills: 11 (33 CP)
- +4 skill points (24 CP).
- Proficiency in Economic Warfare (6 CP).

New total: 263/264 CP.

#### Dedicated

Hit Die: 10d8 (40 CP), Saves: +13 (39 CP), Warcraft: +7 (42 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), *Defender* 1 (6 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP).
Total: 202 CP out of 264 CP

- Class skills: 7 (21 CP).
- Initial skills: 10 (30 CP)
- +2 skill points (12 CP).

New total: 265/264 CP.

#### Charismatic

Hit Die: 10d6 (20 CP), Saves: +13 (39 CP), Warcraft: +7 (42 CP), Feats: 10 (60 CP), Proficiencies: Simple Weapons (3 CP), Action Hero (Heroism Option, +3 Bonus AP per level, 12 CP). Total: 176 CP out of 264 CP

- Class skills: 7 (21 CP).
- Initial skills: 10 (30 CP)
- +2 skill points (12 CP).
- Proficiency in Social Warfare/Propaganda (6 CP).
- Favors 6 (18 CP)

New total: 263/264 CP.

### Power Class Balance

Power classes gain no points for level 0, but don't have to pay for class skills, proficiencies, and initial skills. Almost always a net gain. They're intended to provide lots of special abilities, so numerical benefits are usually modest.